Curse

slowerpoke · Feb 02, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by netniwk

God,I hate people flaming a game when they never even tryed it or have arguments to back them up.

But i have tried it, hence my opinion

call me crazy, but i dont find virtual walking simulators very interesting
and the quests consist of "Kill X of Y" or "bring me A of B by killing C" over and over
wow feels like work, its supposed to be a game

Mordakai · Feb 02, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

This is the whole point. Majority of effort in MMOs is spent on starter areas. They get people hooked.

Then, grind is added to slow the progression through increasingly pointless areas. But people still play, since they expect things to improve as they reach higher level.

And when they reach the level cap, they say: "What now?"

You've been suckered into playing for 3 months. But do buy the expansion. There's better content there, we promise.

And best of all - it works like a charm. Even now, after so many people have experienced the MMOs, players still fall for it. They still get into grindfests, hoping for that promised reward.

But if there's 10 million that are willing to do this in WoW alone, why not milk that market. It takes so much less effort than designing a different game.

Look at GW titles. They don't give any benefit, they don't promise anything, yet people have become mindless zombies grinding them.

You missed my whole point: I don't view it as grind. Of course I realize I'm doing the same thing over and over... but as long as it's fun, I don't mind.

The key is subtle changes: Enemy AI starts doing different things, (running away, calling for help, mixed mobs, etc.) and you gain new powers to help deal with the new threats.

But, yeah, if you want to strip games down their basics: they are ALL repetitive. Build the same units and bases over and over in RTS. Shoot different monsters with different guns in a FPS. Hack monsters in a RPG.

I dare you to find a game that when boiled down to essential gameplay, is not made up of repetitive actions.

Again, Grind is not defined by the actions, but whether the actions are considered "boring", which is a totally subjective view.

Snow Bunny · Feb 02, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

OK. I admit it. I am really spoiled by the GW "just buy it and play it and no subscription fees, ever" business model.

However, I'm getting a tad bored with GW and am wondering what to do in 2008 since GW2 still seems a long LONG way off (2009!

). I mean, how many times can you go through some of these EotN dungeons?

I was just wondering what GW players past and present (that would be you

) looking for something to do till GW2 comes out (but bored with GW1) would be playing this year if all MMOs were, like GW, subscription-free, meaning you buy the game and any expansions, but paid no monthly subscription.

For me, it would probably be WoW (which I already own) or Tabula Rasa or perhaps LOTRO.

Among upcoming (i.e., releasing this year) games, Age of Conan or Warhammer Online look fairly promising.

So, assuming no monthly fees, what would you be playing or want to play?

I would EVE online without a doubt. I'd actually be playing Pirates Online if the free version didn't disconnect every time I tried to make a character. But since TF2 is free, it > GW atm

Unlucky Slayer · Feb 02, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

I'd be playing more EVE, mainly because I like the space setting with all the ships. Though I do feel a bit on the outside wanting to be a miner with a Rorqual. =(

jackie · Feb 02, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I'd choose World of Warcraft but been playing it with subs so no problem with that, have many friends there & love the atmosphere/lore. Never have I found it grind to play that game, with a bunch of friends it has more variety in gameplay than Guild Wars.

Yesterday decided to go back there after a six month pause with a friend of mine and start whole new characters on Talnivarr-EU, night elf rogue (me) & night elf druid (she). Just gonna take it slowly just hour or two night max. PvP servers ftw!

Roderick Bravehart · Feb 02, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Wow, I'd have to say I've been playing 10 years of MMOs total. If all the fees went away, I'd have to hop back into Ultima Online. I've spent more money on that game than any other. I've bought every expansion pack since 1998 and I played until I saw the World of Warcraft Previews. Then I hit a major budget slump and found Guild Wars instead, which I've been playing since beta.

I guess if I couldn't get back into Ultima I'd go with that new one Richard Garriot has out now. Tabula Rasa, right? If It's made by him it's gotta be good.

tmr819 · Feb 02, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

This is the whole point. Majority of effort in MMOs is spent on starter areas. They get people hooked.

Then, grind is added to slow the progression through increasingly pointless areas. But people still play, since they expect things to improve as they reach higher level.

And when they reach the level cap, they say: "What now?"

You've been suckered into playing for 3 months. But do buy the expansion. There's better content there, we promise.

And best of all - it works like a charm. Even now, after so many people have experienced the MMOs, players still fall for it. They still get into grindfests, hoping for that promised reward.

But if there's 10 million that are willing to do this in WoW alone, why not milk that market. It takes so much less effort than designing a different game.

Look at GW titles. They don't give any benefit, they don't promise anything, yet people have become mindless zombies grinding them.

Have to disagree with you there. The benefit is called "having fun."

I define "grind" as any repetitious, boring activity. I agree with Mordekai. Grind is thus highly subjective. What is a "snorefest" (i.e., "grind") for some may well be fun for someone else.

As such, people are not "mindless zombies" just because they are having fun doing something you or I might find boring. (Yeah, I think that most of the titles in GW are pretty boring, too. But so what?) Areas are not "pointless", people are not "falling for anything" if players there are doing something they enjoy.

For myself, I was never bored by WoW. I was, however, put off by the subscription fee and by the fact that so much of the content in WoW required a very tedious, time-consuming, and annoying process called "WoW LFG".

The truth is, I find most games reasonably entertaining, so long as they're solo-accessible and a good value. Rare is the subscription-based MMO, in my opinion, deserving of whatever fee it charges. It isn't that WoW isn't a good game; I think it's just fine. I just don't think it's good enough to charge an admission fee (purchase of the original game/expansion) AND a monthly rental fee on top of that.

That said, desperation and boredom with GW (I'm not there yet, but it's coming, I can feel it

) may lead me to cough up a subscription fee once again. If WoW (or Tabula Rasa) were free, of course, I'd already be gone.

EDIT: Didn't see your followup post, Mordekai. Guess we were thinking along similar lines....

Malice Black · Feb 02, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

LOL Actually eve has the WORST player community I have EVER found in the 10 mmos I've played. Its was even worse that wows and thats really saying something. None of the people I met in my four months there was the LEAST bit helpfull. The corps do NOTHING but attack each other. ONLY play eve if your idea of fun is ruining other peoples or breaking most of the rules every other mmo has. EG scaming people, hassling other players, deliberatly attacking the same person over and over again. Basicly anything that would get you banned in GW is fine in eve.

I'm not supprised malice likes it He has no taste what so ever. Firefly was one of the BEST TV shows EVER. Serenity was a good film too.

You had a bad experience with a game. You won't be the first, and you won't be the last.

Like I stated previously, EVE isn't for everyone. They offer plenty of free trials, so I'd suggest to anyone who is interested to pick up one of those before purchasing.

Typing in caps just makes you look retarded. I wasn't even going to reply, but EVE is better then you're poorly constructed post makes it out to be.

jackie · Feb 02, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

EVE is very interesting game, few friends of mine have been playing that since the beginning, been observing every now and then. Colossal battles between fleets, trading, mining...

I would try that out but schedule is so full atm =(

CyberNigma · Feb 02, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

You enjoyed the early quests? God, what a snorefest.

The pre-BC beginner quest areas still suck for the most part in my opinion. They completely revamped the idea with BC for the Draenei and Blood Elf starting areas. They are great, even including a central storyline that you can follow through.

As far as games, currently I play GW (since it doesn't cancel), WoW, and Tabula Rasa, with a splash of Shadowbane, Dungeon Runners, and Minions of Mirth every few months. I don't have a whole lot of time to play so I switch between what I'm in the mood for. This means that I play in bursts, and sometimes go a bit without doing anything significant in one or two of them.

Having no fees wouldn't make me play wow more or keep playing it when I get bored. I've learned to stay away from ALTs and that will only get worse when the level caps go up again, but playing one char is still fairly fun.

Tabula Rasa I'd keep playing with or without a fee. The idea that I don't have to start alts (read: clones in TR) from scratch but rather at the same point as my main is really great. No more starting new characters from scratch, which I also thought got old (don't repeat the shared experience of the chars, but rather play the branches, but not all games are made for it).

I'd probably give EVE another try without fees. I don't feel compelled to play the games I subscribe to any more than I feel compelled to watch at least XX hours of cable tv or talk XX minutes on the telephone (of which both greatly outweigh the costs of my games). Everyone's different though. They are all there for my convenience when I am 'in the mood' to use/play them.

With no fees, I'd probably have an account on most online games and MMOs and alternate between them based on moods. I'd never get anything done in any of them lol.

I would probably get back into Ultima Online every now and then without fees though.

EDIT: On the other hand, I plan to always come back and play GW every now and then because of the time I've invested in it, regardless of how happy I have been with the changes. I decided some time back I probably wouldn't buy GuildWars 2 even though it has no sub as I don't want to invest that much time in another game by ArenaNet, although I'll give the beta and preview a go as I have nothing to lose. The money isn't the biggest issue with some of us. The time spent in the game is worth more to me than the money I spent (games don't really cost very much in the grand scheme of things, even subscription games). I think Star Wars Galaxies proved that with the NGE updates when people left, not because of the cost, but because of the major changes after they had already invested a good amount of time in the game.

Kashrlyyk · Feb 02, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Yes.

The film was even worse then the series. I have little hope of a decent MMO coming out of it.

I agree, even though I loved all character interactions with the exception of most anything with River.

Shawn The Divine · Feb 02, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

It actually started out as PvE, as said in an interview.

Yes, I'm sure it did. Do you have a video of Anet co-founders saying that? No? Oops, turns out I do.. of them saying otherwise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmnEWvo1Ugw

On topic, were there no monthly fee, I'd be playing Aion.. as soon as it comes out.

RedNova88 · Feb 02, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

I think I'd still stick with GW since it has so much to offer and with no additional cost to me. And if I feel like taking a break I don't have to worry about my account getting cut off.

On top of that many "new" and "exciting" MMOs these days just follow the standard Korean MMO concept, that for some reason is so popular, even though people have actually died to these games because they were so addicted. I remember some story of a kid committing suicide because his character died in some Korean MMO in which if your character dies it's like Diablo Hard Mode.

Dwimmerlaik · Feb 02, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

I'd play Guild Wars primarily, with WoW dashed in - basically, i'd play WoW when a content patch breaks, burn through the content, then come back to GW. WoW really holds no interest for me - high end raiding is an exercise in musical chairs, PvP is entirely rocks->papers->scissors and Blizzard doesn't fix glaring imbalances ever, and if you're not raiding... well, general PvE is bland.

Conversely, high end PvE on GW is pretty fun, general PvE in GW is fun because you can tackle it in a variety of different ways, and PvP here is pretty solid.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 02, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

I'd probably play WAR. And WILL play the BioWare and 40K MMOs when they're out, regardless of fee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I dare you to find a game that when boiled down to essential gameplay, is not made up of repetitive actions.

There's this thing, called, y'know, a storyline...

Darkobra · Feb 02, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn The Divine

Yes, I'm sure it did. Do you have a video of Anet co-founders saying that? No? Oops, turns out I do.. of them saying otherwise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmnEWvo1Ugw

On topic, were there no monthly fee, I'd be playing Aion.. as soon as it comes out.

Who said my interview was in a video? Let alone, a YouTube video. Oops indeed.

"3. PvE grinders destroyed a PvP legend and turned the GW franchise into the new WoW...thanks Anet."

Yeah. This is turning out to be a highly intelligent video.

zwei2stein · Feb 02, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

The series was bad, the MMO won't be any better.

That needs some explanation.

Mostly because it blows "traditional" SF series and approach to pieces.

---

Anyway, Hmm ...

Removal of monthlies would mean that feeling of being forced to play not to waste money disappears.

Which is good, but since their whole structure is based on giving people who feel pressured to play something to do: Little content, lots of grind with now added bonus of being more accessible to kiddies it still means majority of them is no-go.

Operative 14 · Feb 02, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Stargate: Worlds
Star Trek: Online
Possibly LOTR
And that nifty Firefly MMO I just found out about

Sadly I'm one of those people for whom a monthly fee is a deciding factor above gameplay, so I won't be able to touch any of these with a ten foot pole. :/

Harmless · Feb 02, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

It depends on what you mean by free. If its like GW, then there are several I would like to try out and see how they are.

But if its "free" but you pay for ingame items all the time...then no.

I'd rather pay one upfront fee than have to pay by the month.

Clarissa F · Feb 02, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

re Firefly: Kick the Serenity and bro crap out and it was a better show. At least funnier.

No fees...I'd go with LOTRO now, Age of Conan when it comes out. Actually, I'm going Age of Conan, anyway. "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you. To hear the lamentations of the women."

That's one great thing about GW. You can play any other game you want, and still come back to play casual or chill with friends. It's the main reason they went with this model, according to Strain. They wanted a game you didn't feel obligated to play all the time, and that you could play along with a subscription game.